air_wolf

Montaj troliu

65 posts in this topic

depinde si ce faci cu masina, eu zic ca pentru situatii de urgenta si uz 'amatorial' si un 4500lbs e ok; eu m-am jucat destul de mult cu al meu si a tras fara probleme, chiar si fara scripete (recuperat zapaciti din nisip pe la mare, trolieri prin delta cu noroiul pana la praguri si alte d'astea)

 

minim 8000lbs pe duster pentru o utilizare moderata non-competitie mi se pare deja cam mult, dar e doar parerea mea; pana la urma nu cred ca vrea nimeni sa-si trolieze dusterul pe verticala :)

Ai perfecta dreptate. Pentru reprize /secvente/ distante - cum vrei sa-i zici - de troliere scurte. In acest caz, este suficient un troliu mai mic.

Cu cat creste distanta de troliere, cu atat iti trebuie un troliu mai puternic sa poti sa te ajuta de el. E vorba de numarul de infasurari pe tambur. Altfel, il prajesti. Am vazut o situatie in care un troliu a cedat fizic in incercarea recuperarii unei masini pe o distanta de 20-30 metri in linie dreapta nefiind alte posibilitati de fixare -ravena stanga / dreapta. Trebuia doar sa trecem peste un trunchi de copac semiingropat pe care rotile nu aveau aderenta. Altfel, trecerea peste acel trunchi de copac era banala - garda la sol permitea abordarea si n-ar fi fost nevoie de troliu, daca pierdeai vremea cu constructia unei "punti" de trecere.

Am postat informatia pentru cei interesati, sa tina cont si de numarul de infasurari la derularea tamburului riscand altfel prajirea electromotorului la o derulare aproape completa (doar un rand de spre ramase pe tambur)..

Mai trebuie corelata si sectiunea "plasmei" la sarcina, altfel cedeaza si aceasta daca nu "crapa" troliul inainte (la a doua masina a cedat plasma la jumatate si a trebuit sa ne troliem cu jumatate din lungimea plasmei).

La concursuri, pe langa cele de mai sus, mai contreaza si viteza de troliere, dar asta-i alta poveste.

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de pe un site cu landy's, jupanii prezinte un mic tutorial despre cum este recomandabil sa-ti alegi troliul: (de data asta se aduce in ecuatie si consistenta solului respectiv unghiul de recuperare)

 

WHICH WINCH? - SOME GUIDELINES TO HELP YOU CHOOSE

Electric winches are far and away the most popular choice for light off-road vehicles up to 3 tonnes or so. This is often because they are easy to fit, reliable, powerful and simple to use. They are also generally more affordable.

What size winch?

Getting the right size winch for your vehicle is crucial. Whilst you can't have too much power, up to a point, and you don't want to spend more money than you need to, either. Weight and dimensions are also a point to consider on some higher capacity winches.

What do the terms mean?

Just as motor manufacturers quote the very best possible performance figures for their vehicles in their literature, winch manufacturers quote the maximum possible line-pull for their winches.

Quoted line-pull figures are calculated on the assumption of a bare drum (so the gearing effect is most advantageous). Approximately 10-12% of this figure is lost per layer of rope on the drum. The quoted 'Maximum Line Pull' is actually the maximum load that the winch will lift vertically, (although no 'winches' are safe to lift with). They use this figure as it is the most accurate way of comparing winches. For off-road vehicle recovery you will need to consider other factors such as a soft ground surface and gradient.

The Science Bit

The following information explains how to calculate the effort required from a winch in order to judge which model would be best for your purposes.

There are three factors to consider: Ground Condition = GC, Gradient = GR and Vehicle Weight.

First calculate the ground condition (GC). This is numbered from 2 to 25 as shown below.

Type of Ground / Ground Condition (GC)

 

Smooth Road 25

Grass 7

Hard/Wet Sand 6

Gravel or Soft/Wet Sand 5

Loose/Dry Sand 4

Shingle 3

Soft Clay or Mud 2

 

Now take the weight of the vehicle, say 2 tonnes, and divide this figure by the estimated GC figure. This results in the Rolling Resistance (RR) figure. For example, if the ground is soft mud it will be divided by 2, giving an RR of 1 tonne. The angle of the slope also has to be calculated and added to the RR. Even a vehicle on the flat will have a GR figure as it will have sunk into the mud. For a gradient up to 45 degrees the GR is calculated as a sixtieth of the vehicle weight. Anything over that angle and the GR would be taken as equal to the Vehicle Weight.

Example: If a 2 tonne vehicle is stuck in soft mud up to the axles (i.e. the slope is 30 degrees), the force required to recover it can be calculated as follows.

Rolling Resistance = Vehicle weight divided by ground condition i.e. 2 tonnes divided by 2 = 1 tonne.

To calculate the gradient resistance take the weight of the vehicle multiplied by the slope. i.e 2 x 30 = 60. As this is less than 45 degrees it is calculated as a sixtienth (divide by 60). So, the GR is 1 and the force required is RR plus GR, in this case a total of 2 tonnes.

It is wise to include a safety factor at the end. This is one quarter of the total (RR + GR). So the final total is 2.50 tonnes. It is sensible to round up the total figure, say 3 tonnes in this case.

Other considerations when choosing a winch:

Winch weight

The extra weight of a winch system along with its fitting system adds around 90 kilos to the front axle of the vehicle. This is based on a 9,000 lb electric winch with 31metres of wire rope. This obviously has an effect on the likelihood of bogging the front axle. It is worth bearing the weight issue in mind when choosing a winch as this weight can become excessive with some systems. It has to be said that the weight of hydraulic systems tends to be higher, as there are more components and there is the weight of the hydraulic reservoir to consider. One way of keeping the weight down is to use a Plasma 12 winch line. These are only a fraction of the weight of a wire rope which usually weighs 10 or 11 kilos.

Speed

Although high-speed is usually not always a desirable feature, particularly during tricky recovery operations, it is sometimes useful to have the capacity for a good line speed. If necessary, line speed can always be slowed by the use of a pulley block carrying out a double-line pull. This slows the line speed by 50%. It is always possible to slow a fast winch but you can't speed up a slow winch. Some hydraulic winches have two speeds but use of the higher speed reduces line-pull capacity dramatically.

Cost

There is no doubt that an electric winch system is generally much less expensive to buy than a complete hydraulic system with associated hydraulic pump, fluid tank and pipework. This is mainly due to fact that there are less components in an electric winch system. Repair costs are also usually less. Electric winches basically comprise of a gearbox, drum and motor. It is unusual to have problems with the drum or the gearbox unless the winch has been neglected. The repair or replacement of an electric motor is generally much less than the repair of a hydraulic motor which is made from precision components which are more costly to produce. If necessary electric winch repairs can often be carried out in the field. Though in fairness, hydraulic winches are generally very reliable and long-lived if maintained according to the manufacturers guidelines.

Edited by mustermann

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@ mustermann: nu inteleg, de ce ar trage MAI GREU un troliu atunci cand e derulat maxim (ai scris mai sus "riscand altfel prajirea electromotorului la o derulare aproape completa (doar un rand de spire ramase pe tambur).. " )

 

Dupa bunul meu simt tehnic e chiar invers: cand tot cablul e derulat (mai putin ultimele 8-10 spire care TREBUIE sa ramana pe tambur), atunci troliul are forta de tragere maxima (diametrul tamburului e mai mic). Pe masura ce infasori cablu pe tambur, practic diametrul "tamburului" creste, deci forta de tragere scade. Cum pedalezi mai usor la bicileta ? cand e lantul pe foaia aia mare (tambur si toate straturile de cablu infasurat) sau cand e lantul pe foaia mica (doar tambur) ?

 

In rest sunt perfect de acord cu ce scriu baietii aia de la Land Rover (treaba cu acei coeficienti).

 

In specificatiile troliilor (alea decente, nu orice chinezarie ieftina) este specificat si valoarea "Line pull", adica cate kg trage troliul daca are 1-2-3-4 straturi de cablu infasurate. Ai sa observi ca pe stratul 1 (cel de pe tambur) forta de tragere este maixma si are valoarea trecuta pe troliu. Deja pe linia a2a scade, si tot asa. Pe ultima linie, forta de tragere este ~jumatate din forta trecuta pe troliu.

Deci atentia trebuie sa fie la aspectul asta.

 

Exemplu: ai un troliu de 8000lbs, deci tragi 3.6Tone maxim...aparent suficient pentru un Duster...corect...dar asta DOAR DACA ai cablul desfasurat de pe tambur maxim, daca tu scoti doar 5m de cablu, si practic inca esti pe infasurarea a4a, atunci troliul tau va trage undeva la 2.8T doar. Care daca vorbim de un Duster bagat in noroi (Coeficient 2 -> troliul trebuie sa traga cu 2x greutate Duster de 1.3T=2.6T) e la limita. Daca e si panta mare sau incarcata masina atunci poate trece de limita.

Pe de alta parte, folosind un troliu de 4500lbs (2T), ai zice ca e insuficient. Dar, daca iei si un scripete (e ieftin si usor), atunci dublezi capacitatea de tragere maxima, deci cu cablul derulat la maxim (28m?) ai zice ca e prea lung cablul, dar daca pui 1 scripete atunci practic distanta pana la punctul de ancorare nu mai e 28m, ci devine 14m ....deja e mai interesant. Daca e o situatie super mega maro si ai nevoie de forta de tragere si mai mare, pui 2 scripeti, si cablul derulat la maxim de pe tambur dar trecut prin 2 scripeti inseamna o distanta pana la punctul de ancorare de 28/3=~9m.

 

Acuma hai sa vedem:

Distanta pana la punctul de tragere este 9m (de la masina la pom sa zicem)...e o distanta decenta/uzuala/comuna....

caz a ) troliu 8000lbs (3.6T max), derulat 9m pana la punctul de ancorare ->inseamna ca te afli pe spira a4a a tamburului deci tragi maxim 2.8T, hai sa zicem ca esti pe spira a3a, si atunci ai 3T forta de tragere.

caz b ) troliu 4500lbs (2T max), derulat 27m trecuti prin 2 scripeti= 9m pana la punctul de ancorare ->inseamna ca te afli pe prima spira, deci tragi cu 2T, dar multiplici (prin cei 2 scripeti) de 3x -> tragi cu 6T

caz c ) troliu 4500lbs (2T max), derulat 18m trecut printr-un scripete = 9m pana la punctul de ancorare-> inseamna ca te afli pe spira a2a probabil unde troliul trage 1.7T, dar multiplici prin scripete de 2x -> tragi cu 3.4T

 

Surse de info:

https://www.warn.com.../62885A7_rs.pdf -> tehnici de troliere (scripeti)

https://www.warn.com...src/M8000.shtml -> troliu Warn M-8000 specificatii

https://www.warn.com...tage_4500.shtml ->troliu Warn 4500lbs specificatii

 

Faceti voi matematica mai departe.... :-))))

 

Avantaje troliu mai mic + scripeti fata de troliu mare:

- cari o greutate mai mica atarnata in bot (la Dustere conteaza)

- cost mai mic de achizitie

- forta de tragere este mai mare (cu scripetii pusi)

- sarcina pe baterie si alternator este mai mica (curentul absorbit)

- se poate integra (mai) usor in bara originala a masinii.

- avand 1-2 scripeti la dispozitie se pot face trolieri laterale, asigurari laterale sau chiar trolieri in spate avand troliul montat in fata.

 

Dezavantaje troliu mic + scripeti fata de troliu mare:

- trebuie sa ai 1-2 scripeti cu tine cand iesi in teren...in rest ii poti lasa acasa

- trebuie sa stii sa pui acei 2 scripeti

- trebuie sa ai inca o sufa (langa cea de copac care oricum ar trebui sa o ai) cu care sa fixezi scripetele.

- viteza de troliere e mai scazuta, dar tinand cont ca nu discutam acum despre competitii, timpul nu e atat de critic.

- esti mai "fraier" ca ai troliu mic nu l-ai luat pe "cel mai tare"

 

Pe Duster sincer as pune 4500lbs si 2 scripeti daca stiu ca ma dau mega soft (plimbari pe forestiere, la ski iarna, picnici & shit), eventual un 6500lbs daca stiu ca mai fac "haiducii" cu baietii in ideea ca sa nu trebuiasca sa pun 2 scripeti, sa fie suficient numa 1. Asta tinand cont ca masina va circula 99% prin oras si pe asfalt si nu e nevoie de troliu, troliu pe care desi il folosesc (poate, nu e sigur) doar in acei 1% de non asfalt.

 

Ca idee, am un bivol de 13000lbs pe masina (~50kg doar el si cablu) si urmeaza sa-l schimb cu un 8000lbs cu plasma (~27kg troliu si cablu) fiindca nu mai am chef sa car bucata aia de fier aiurea in bot. Ptr ce si cat am folosit eu troliul (cred ca de vreo 7-8 ori in total din care de vreo 3x am tras pe altii) imi ajunge is un troliu mai mic si mai usor.

Edited by kidu79

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@ kidu79: Multam de interpelare: Pentru ca incerc sa stabilesc si eu optimul necesar intru echipare mai haiduceasca, tot cautam informatii, despre subiect, drept care le-am postat si in folosul comunitatii (Vorba aia: de la lume adunate si-napoi la lume date). Ai mare dreptata cand spui, ca un factor de decizie este cat vrei sa te folosesti de troliu. Pentru soft offroad, cum probabil cei mai multi isi utilizeaza vehiculul, nici macar de troliu nu ai nevoie, pentru ca masinuta poate, trebuie doar putin imbunatatite soft-skillurile conducatorilor si increderea.

Dar cand te mananca talpa....

Cat despre infasurari pe tambur etc ca tot m-ai starnit, am descarcat niste materiale legate de tribologie si un studiu al unuia referitor la cabestane, tamburi etc (infasurari, forte, bla-bla-uri matematice) sper ca amintirile mele fizico-injineresti sa ma lamureasca: catu-i folclor si catu-i injinerie :baby:

Deci, revin.

Iar apropos de scripeti, alte pareri adunate de prin lume:

 

Winches are rated in line pull, and are usually measured pounds, lbs. or Kg.. The rated line pull is with the first layer of wire rope on the winch drum / single layer.

There are three basic power supply types of winch.

(1.) Low Voltage, = 12v. and 24 volt.

(2.) High Voltage, = 110 volt.

(3.) Hydraulic Only.

Low Voltage and Hydraulic winches are suitable for outdoor use.

The winch sees only the load, that is to say that the line pull is the amount of force the winch needs to produce to move an object. This would be the figure that would be measured on a strength gauge if one was fitted in series with the line (wire rope).

When deciding which model winch to buy, consider the length of wire rope required, as the rated line pull is quoted with the first layer of wire rope on the winch drum. As you winch in the winch becomes less powerful with each layer of wire rope on the winch drum. You should also remember that winch cables never spool onto the winch drum evenly, this results in cable bunching which in turn compounds the problem of layer build up and in turn a loss of pulling power as described below.

As a guide for each layer of wire rope on the drum deduct 10% off the rated line pull. e.g. A winch with a line pull of say 6,000 lbs.. will have a line pull of 5,400lbs.. on the second layer, 4,860 lbs.. on the third layer and 4,374 lbs.. on the fourth layer, etc. So if you need to pull 6,000 lbs.. for any distance, you will need a winch with a greater rated line pull to start with.

You can effectively double the line pull capacity of a winch, by applying what is called a 'double line'. By using a Snatch Block / Pulley Block, you will double the line pull of the winch, but will halve the winching speed, due to the gearing ratio, this is not usually important and is often safer if you are pulling an abnormal load. However, for every pulley you use there is a frictional loss of approximately 10% per pulley.

To effect a true double line, attach the snatch block to the load, wind the wire rope from the winch drum out and around the snatch block pulley, then back and attach the wire rope to a place adjacent to the winch itself. This is a 'Double Line'.

To calculated the size of winch you will require to pull your load you will need to know the weight of the item to be winched : Rolling weight or dead weight. Is it on wheels such as a car? Are you pulling a load not on wheels? What type of surface is it being winched over? Sand? Hard-Core etc.? What gradient is there, if any? What distance do you need to winch over? As you can see, there are many factors that have to be taken into consideration when deciding what size and type of winch to buy. We are able to make the calculations for you, and advise and recommend a winch for your particular needs.

This drawing shows a typical Double Line: A Double Line as used for self recovery using an anchor point such as a tree.

dline1.jpg

 

dline2.jpg

Indirect Double Line Pull

Indirect pulling may be required because of obstacles. The pulley block is attached to the load and the wire rope is attached to an anchor point offset from the direction in which the load is to be moved. Note that this procedure is not recommended unless necessary as the winch pulling power and line speed will decrease as the angle between the wire rope increases. dline3.jpgSingle Line Pull

 

 

sline1.jpg

 

Whilst this configuration uses a pulley block it is only a single line pull and the pulling power will be as the winch line pull rating as described above.

 

Wire Ropes:

There are different types of wire rope available. The best quality, often referred to as aircraft quality, are of wire core construction, whereas the cheaper types are of nylon core construction. i.e. There is actually a nylon core in the centre of the wire rope, instead of a wire core as in top quality ropes.

Then there is the make up of the wire itself, including how many strands of wire there are, this can effect the strength and flexibility of the rope.

Make sure that if a hook is attached, the hook is also capable of handling the load, and that it is correctly stamped with a safe working load.

All quality wire ropes should come, as ours do, with a test certificate.

You may need to produce a certificate for your insurance company.

Cheap wire ropes never pay in the long term and can be dangerous. You only get what you pay for.

 

We only supply top quality wire core construction wire ropes together with a test certificate.

 

Some useful tips:

rope-hook-1.JPG

 

NEVER attach the winch cable back onto itself as shown. Always use a sling with a shackle when using a tree. Make sure you use a soft sling to prevent damaging the tree.

 

 

It is good practice to use a heavy blanket or jacket over the wire rope as shown below. If a rope failure should occur the weight of the cloth will act as a damper and help prevent the broken rope from whipping. A raised vehicle bonnet will also give some protection should the rope break. Also, the blanket acts as a visual warning to bystanders and is likely to prevent them from walking into or tripping over the wire rope.

 

You should always make sure that everyone keeps well back and away from any winching activity. However, in the case of a long distance pull you may not see a person who inadvertently walks towards the wire rope, such a cover will help bring the wire rope to their attention. It is recommended that in such circumstances two operators should be in attendance.

rope2.jpg

Using Cable Clamps on a Wire Rope.

1. Clamps should be spaced 6 rope diameters apart.

2. Ensure that when forming a loop or fitting a thimble that the first and last clamps are not over tightened so

as to damage the rope.

3. Both the nuts on each clamp should be tightened equally.

4. Re-tighten the nuts after use and keep checking them on a regular basis.

5. Make sure that you use the correct type and size of cable clamp.

6. You must use a minimum of three clamps as shown below.

7. Make sure that you fit the clamps exactly as shown below. This is VERY IMPORTANT.

 

rope3.jpg

 

When handling Wire Ropes always wear protective gloves and use a hand saver bar.

Check the Wire Rope regularly for any damage or wear.

Never use a worn or damaged Wire Rope.

Make sure that the Wire Rope is correctly rated for the winch and the load, including any hooks or shackles it is attached to.

The Wire Rope should be wound neatly onto the winch drum.

Prevent kinks.

All Wire Ropes should come with a safety Test Certificate.

Wire Ropes can be DANGEROUS if not handled correctly

Edited by mustermann

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@mustermann: teoria scripetilor (atata cata e nevoie ptr a intelege cum functioneaza troliul) e explicit prezentata in manualul de fizica, clasa a7a (vezi http://manualul.info/Fizica_VII_1998/Fizica_VII_1998.pdf pagiile4-52) . Sa nu crezi ca zic la misto acuma, serios acolo e explicat ce si cum.

Cat despre tribologie, consider ca acei factori de corectie dati de englezi (post-area ta anterioara) e suficient de intuitiva si utila, mai mult de atat e teorie....

 

Apropo, in textul pus de tine in engleza, exact ce am spus eu, sustin si baietii aia:

 

"When deciding which model winch to buy, consider the length of wire rope required, as the rated line pull is quoted with the first layer of wire rope on the winch drum. As you winch in the winch becomes less powerful with each layer of wire rope on the winch drum. You should also remember that winch cables never spool onto the winch drum evenly, this results in cable bunching which in turn compounds the problem of layer build up and in turn a loss of pulling power as described below.

As a guide for each layer of wire rope on the drum deduct 10% off the rated line pull. e.g. A winch with a line pull of say 6,000 lbs.. will have a line pull of 5,400lbs.. on the second layer, 4,860 lbs.. on the third layer and 4,374 lbs.. on the fourth layer, etc. So if you need to pull 6,000 lbs.. for any distance, you will need a winch with a greater rated line pull to start with.

You can effectively double the line pull capacity of a winch, by applying what is called a 'double line'. By using a Snatch Block / Pulley Block, you will double the line pull of the winch, but will halve the winching speed, due to the gearing ratio, this is not usually important and is often safer if you are pulling an abnormal load. However, for every pulley you use there is a frictional loss of approximately 10% per pulley.

"

 

Weekend fain!

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